A little birdy (the December meeting minutes) told me that trial balloons are being floated within the Board about seeing if APS can bring buried power lines to 4 Hills. Say WHAT??

Let me see . . . we're into a recession and getting deeper, the real estate market is in the toilet and getting worse, folks aren't visiting 4 Hills like they used to, many peeps are trying to unload their parcels and having no luck selling.

Four Hills is not a master-planned, gated community with paved roads and buried utilities. If it was, we'd have paid $200K per parcel--not $14-35K. Ya gets what you pay for. Prescott Lakes we are not.

Let's hear from you, fellow 4 Hillers. Ready to pony up the big bucks to run miles of cable to get a meter spinning off the back of your humble abode?

I know we all have different dreams and value systems, but aren't most of us owning & living out here to get away from the "big city" ways, wasteful power sources, noise and rushing traffic? What were you dreaming when you plunked down the cash to buy out here?

Sure, some peeps just have $$$$ in their eyes--that's their world and all that 4 Hills represents to them. Well good luck with that, as I like to say.

While we're thinking "progress", we could use a community water tank, fire truck, garbage collection, a gas station/C-store, and a Chuckee Cheese (for the grandkids) too. Just think of the lines of people waiting to pay top dollar for your lil' ol' piece of dirt then!

Come on, Darlin'! I'm taking you into town and buying you a new dress!!

P.S. A prediction:
I'll be riding the Bill Williams Tilt`o Whirl at the Wild West Amusement Park in Garland Prairie by the time we see buried utilities at 4 Hills.

Hmm, not sure how you interpreted the agenda to mean we are looking at power lines, but you do have a special conduit to the board workings.

Unbelievable that anyone could consider laying utility lines. I can make a guess who might have brought up the idea, but I think I will keep the guess to myself. (Sorry, Jim, no clues this time.) Surely someone has the information that it costs many thousands of dollars to run a utility line from the road (even if APS were to agree to run down our roads) to the house. And even if you choose to not put in the lines, your taxes will automatically go up whether you have made any improvements or not.

Has anyone checked the CCRs lately to confirm that the board's only job is to take care of the roads? Did something slip past us that they now have quality of life on their to-do list? If they have, they have an entirely different point of view from any people I have talked w/ over the past 5 years regarding the expected quality of life on the ranch.

Everyone I talked w/ already knew there was no water, no electric, the roads were marginal. Everyone I talked w/ was prepared to bring in or harvest water, make their own electric, and try to live w/ the roads. What happened? Lordy.

T

Well Bruce, I guess you certainly don’t hold anything back when someone asks a question at a Board meeting which you take issue with (which, by the way, you didn’t attend the Board meeting and you just happened to peak at the unreleased minutes). Is it possible that the minutes don’t reveal the entire conversation and the full context of the question? Anyway, whatever happened to the phrase “No question is foolish or silly”?

I remember some blog by you not too long ago about why folks don’t attend the meetings like they used to. Could it be they are afraid that if they ask a question there may be a “Bruce Bashing” waiting for them. If this wasn’t a reason before, better add it to your list. We had only 3 of the 400+ property owners not affiliated with the Board at the meeting. I guess we shouldn’t expect such a large turnout next time. As a member of the board, maybe I better watch what I say during our meetings because if it gets mentioned in the “unreleased” minutes and you take issue with it, I could be the next “Bruce Bashed Victim”.

About the APS comment, well, buried versus overhead wires – I’ll go for the buried one please. I think we all realize we are years away from having electric, water, or any other modern convenience supplied to the 4HR properties, but if electricity was offered to our lots at a much more reasonable price than installing your own photocells and backup batteries, with no worries such as how your batteries were going to be charged after 2 cloudy days, or without having to start a “noisy, gasoline consuming, pollution spiting generator”, would you be interested? Well, maybe not you, but maybe some other land owners would be. It just so happens that I know from a “little birdie” who works in the Solar/Alternate Energy Department for a major power company (no names mentioned), that BIG bucks are being spent on developing their solar and wind power capabilities. What if I told you they were investigating “mini” self sufficient power sub-stations using only solar and wind resources, designed specifically to support rural communities, without the cost and hassle of running lines, and that they could supply this power much more economically than an individual home owner could. No major wire problems running wire long distances as these “mini stations” could be strategically placed within multiple locations in the neighborhood. I’m sure this may still be a dream to some, and there would be many issues to work out, but it very well may be coming – 5 years, 10 years, or maybe more, who knows. Foolish of any of us to think we on 4HR would ever have power supplied to our homes, isn't it...

Howdy Tom!
Yeah, I wasn't able to attend the board meeting. Shame on me. It was raining cats and dogs Saturday, and even my wife, Board-member Sherrian, was unable to attend (being the prudent soul she is).

I had plans to stay here at el rancho to watch our four disabled children, two goats, six cats and two dogs in her absence. Sorry if I copped out y'all.

The meeting attendance? Give me a freakin' break. It was a monsoon event around here. The meeting should have been rescheduled--period.

I don't care if the minutes don't discuss the "entire conversation" regarding bringing buried power lines into 4 Hills. The fact that it even was discussed means that the Board was veering off-mandate into uncharted territory.

The point I was making was that the Board is getting distracted from its mandate: the ROADS and enforcing the CC&Rs--PERIOD!

BTW, as to whether any Board member feels intimidated about receiving a "Bruce Bashing" . . . I say: ya pays your dime--you takes yer chances. 1st Amendment and all that . . . .

One of my internet handles is "Gadfly" and I proudly live up to the name. I despise backdoor dealers, liars, megalomaniacs, enablers, and other slimy creatures that prefer living in the dark. I will make the lives of anyone who undemocratically wields their power over me a living HELL--if they deserve it. I think others would concur.

Tom says:
"I think we all realize we are years away from having electric, water, or any other modern convenience supplied to the 4HR properties, but if electricity was offered to our lots at a much more reasonable price than installing your own photocells and backup batteries, with no worries such as how your batteries were going to be charged after 2 cloudy days, or without having to start a “noisy, gasoline consuming, pollution spiting [sic] generator”, would you be interested?"

Tom, your argument about these "future" power solutions is all fine and good. I won't stand on one leg waiting for it, though. Much of that is PR from the corporate weenies who are all about "greenwashing" their image and trying to make us feel good while they rake in the big bucks burning coal, oil and uranium.

When I was a kid (Baby Boomer that I am) we were all told that we'd be living in nuclear-powered homes and fly to work in our own private aircraft. That worked out pretty well, didn't it? Yeah, pipe dreams are great, just don't bet the ranch on it. Sherrian & I are already walking the talk and don't give a rat's hiney about future promises.

So, yeah, I'm gonna give a "Bruce Bashing" to time wasted on Fantasyland and other time/money wasters when our roads still need lots of work--and the CC&Rs have yet to be enforced.

Yes Bruce, the weather a week ago was rather extreme for these parts, and where I was planning to drive from Phoenix to 4-Hills on Friday night, I had changed my plans and left from Phoenix at 5am Saturday to make our earlier 8am review meeting. Probably pretty foolish of me to be that dedicated. It was probably pretty foolish of the other 4HR residents to feel that dedicated to also make the meeting, right. Rescheduling meetings at the last minute is always a difficult decision, especially if people had traveled the night before to make a meeting, and then the meeting gets cancelled due to inclement conditions.

Well Bruce, I do need to make my last comments, then you can make yours, and anyone reading this can form their own opinion and make their own comments if they’d like, after all, as you state, that is our right under the 1st Amendment, etc… As far as the point you were making, and I quote, ”The point I was making was that the Board is getting distracted from its mandate: the ROADS and enforcing the CC&Rs--PERIOD!”. If you note, the NOW published minutes from Dec 01, and most of the minutes published in the past, the roads are always the number one topic, and their care and maintenance is very dear to all of us. Of course there are always other topics, most of which ARE related to the CC&R’s, and items which directly affect the property owners and the operations of the board.

As you may know, for the benefit of the property owners, at the end of every meeting, after the agenda topics are covered, there is an Open Forum. This is where the Board will entertain such topics as you might call “off-mandate into uncharted territory”. Bruce, the topic you have taken issue with and started this whole discussion (seeing if APS can bring buried power lines to 4 Hills) is probably “off-mandate”, but it showed that some folks who live on 4HR are looking towards the future development of 4HR. These are exactly the type of questions which should be asked in the Open Forum portion of the meeting.

A little context must be given here and how I interpreted the comment about buried power lines on 4HR, and Bruce, if you were at the meeting, I would think you have interpreted it the same way, given your passion to keep 4HR in its natural beauty. During the meeting there was discussion about the Land Locked Properties and Clear Air Estates. (For everyone’s information, there are many small parcels of privately owned land just north of HMR and 4HR, who are likely to soon to gain legal access to their current land-locked properties). Because these are many small lots of a few acres each, they would be a prime target to have APS supply them with electrical power. Now many of the northern most HR properties boarder Clear Air Estates, so once Clear Air Estates has power, it only makes sense that the bordering 4HR properties will have easy access to power as well.

Now, back to the issue - we (meaning 4HR) can just let this happen, and over time, it is very likely that there will be overhead power lines zigzagging throughout 4HR. Bruce, regardless if you want power or not, there will be property owners who want power and have the bucks to burn. And, the current easement along every property line allows utility companies to put the power lines right across your back yard. If you would much prefer those unsightly overhead wires running along your property to supply your rich neighbor with APS power, then that’s your right. Now to your point Bruce, that this may never happen, that’s possible, and then again, it may happen, maybe in 5 years, maybe 20 years, who knows. The point is, as a community, we can make provisions and plan for this by possibly updating our CC&R’s where only buried power lines are permitted within the ranch. You are correct, the Board has more important timely issues to deal with, and will not commit time and effort to deal with this now, which is why, if you read the rest of the minutes, it was suggested to have our new Planning Committee consider this topic. Bruce, if you are dead set against buried power lines in 4HR and consider those who suggest it Morons, then place me into that Moron category as well because I’ll vote for buried cable…

Wow! APS lines in 4hills, who would of thought we would come to this?
There is a section in the POA website under the "board of directors" titled "Vision" and is described as being a set of "guiding principles to steer our priorities, decisions and spending".
The 2nd principle listed is "we desire an off grid sustainable approach to living"
Can someone rationally explain how we can even consider bringing in power lines and promote an off grid sustainable approach to living at the same time? Isn't being on grid and off grid somewhat philosophically opposed?
Why would they even consider discussing it?

Hi, Tom. It's so nice to hear from you again. Your thoughtful responses on this powerline issue and your dedication to making the meeting in bad weather are pretty much what I expected from you when I urged you so many times to consider joining the board. I also consider your positive spin and forward-thinking bent just exactly what would be expected from you. And I know we laughed several times about the fact that if you did get on the board, we probably wouldn't agree about decisions but at least I was comfortable knowing you would be one person who would really look into all aspects of the issues going into making the decison.

And that's what this tempest looks like. I disagree that the board should be involved in this idea, as it is outside the stated pervue of the body. I also disagree that depending on a public utility is a good idea. And I think Bruce may well be right that the private utility plans are so much blue-skying and may well amount to nothing at all.

However, if the board is putting any time into looking at it, I'm sure we'll get some pretty complete answers in the end. I just hope they make more sense than the plan of trying to bring a couple of miles of roadway up to county standards while leaving many more miles in pretty iffy condition.

Being in a board seat is always being on the hotseat and it's always waaay easier to ***** about decisions when you aren't responsible for them. Having been on both sides of that table, I can commisserate w/ all the commentators here. Peace, children.

Tom, I'm not implying you are a moron. I'm sure you'll improve the make-up of the Board. The Board is still a work-in-progress and I think having you and Tim on the Board is a positive step.

But back to my rant:

Sherrian regrets not making the meeting. The meeting minutes are spare of detail. It would have been nice for those not attending the meeting to get some sense of reference and deeper background on the broaching of the APS power line topic.

Since there's so little detail in the minutes, we can only go with what's in black & white along with some of the context that Tom has now provided.

Here is the relevant quote from the Board meeting minutes:

"Steve Shields asked if we had contacted APS to find out how much it would cost to bring power to Four Hills Ranch. The Board has not pursued APS on the matter. A suggestion was made to have the Planning Committee consider the topic and possible criteria such as burying power cables."

If the APS underground utilities question was thrown out there because some eager beavers at Clear Air Estates or Four Hills want to bring in city power using above-ground poles, I'm against it and the Board should "consider" and then forget about any pursuit of the subject.

I think the Board should stick to the "criteria" (aesthetics) aspect of bringing in power and stick to it's mandate. If some deep-pockets owner wants to pay APS to run underground power to his humble abode, I say "go for it". Just keep it underground and privately funded.

My subject line was a quote from "Groundhog Day"-- a bit harsh, I admit. I just get frustrated at the hair-brained values systems some people have. You know: that we just HAVE to "improve" every corner of the planet. We have several of the "pave paradise and put up a parking lot" contingent owning at 4 Hills. Many of them have served on the Board. That's why we gotta watch `em like rugrats with a razor blade!

Tessa says: "Being in a board seat is always being on the hotseat and it's always waaay easier to ***** about decisions when you aren't responsible for them."

I don't see any of the past Board members taking responsibility for some of their bone-headed moves. In fact, they probably sleep pretty well at night. They move on, do whatever--are soon forgotten. The fiduciary responsibility owed to the members seems to get swept aside as personalities and agendas take center stage. We, the on-site residents, have to LIVE with whatever decisions the Board comes up with--at least until we can get fresh blood onto the Board, undo the damage, and try again. That's a pretty good reason for b-i-t-c-h-i-n-g, I'd say.

No argument here. Interesting that my guess as to who had made the APS suggestion was right on target. A parking lot paver? Hmm.

Please do let me say again that whether or not I agree or expect to agree w/ the decisions coming out of this board, I still think it's the best one we have had and expect it to be the one most sensitive to the interests of the widest range of landowners. That stated, if you have an issue, open a dialog w/ the board. B-i-t-c-h-i-n-g isn't necessarilly a negative thing if you can bring along potential solutions with your complaints.

On behalf of the Board, we appreciate all the positive comments.

It's amazing, but I think somehow we all “kinda” agree. Boy it was good to get all that “stuff” off our chests. I think the bottom line here is that the Board serves the members of the community. We try to do what’s best for everyone, but when that isn’t possible, we need to go with the majority. We try to keep the roads in the best shape funding will permit, try to enforce the CC&R’s, and try keep abreast on current and future issues best we can. Notice I said we try, no one’s perfect, and we aren’t full time paid Board Members or a private 4HR Police department, so don't expect miracles.

The reason for the Open Forum after every Board meeting is to entertain questions and issues, bring up new topics dealing with the well being of 4HR, as well as constructive criticism and opinions. Bruce, quite a bit of those topics are covered on your Web site as well, and it does great service to the community, but just so everyone else knows, Board meetings and emails to the Board are the official communication method to bring up issues, especially if you want them to be addressed. Also, meeting minutes will never replace the actual conversations held during meetings. Maybe we can do a little better in communicating some of the topics covered, but being at the meeting in person always provides all the views and details of the discussions.

Recesssion has been over, about Six or seven years ago.

Now, do the power lines go Over or Under? good question, Tom.

Progress wins, always.

Tom;

hey, you're not talking about 'CAPSTONE' are you?


thanks

Sorry Jim, I don't know what "Capstone" is or what it is in reference to. Maybe you could enlighten me...

Sorry to hear the numbers were so small at the meeting, I know for travelling cross country for it was not possible. Plus the first I heard of it was when I was notified the minutes were on the website, after the meeting occured. I am now in San Diego for the winter and moving to Williams to "build" on 4 Hills in spring, therefore planning to attend all future meetings. For what it is worth I spent a few years working in HOA management, and I understand the difficulties board members run into. I personally thank you for giving your free time for all of us that can't, also I would like to thank Bruce for maintaining this website, so we have the chance to voice our ideas and opinions. We can't all agree all the time, that is called YES men,and they only belong in a marriage (ha, ha). Maybe SOMEHOW, the better idea would be figure out HOW to get more land owners at the meetings????? My family owned a condo years ago and your vote strength was based on how many weeks you lived in the building???? Just a crazy idea???

Anybody reading this, please do what I just did, finally clicked on reply and said something, as I said it can be hard to get to the meetings, send an email to the board if yoy have thoughts or ideas.

Thanks, Brad.

Tom and Brad;

Brad, thats a good point on "others posting", why not?

Tom, i didnt expect a reply, sorry. regarding Capstone (cpst), small co. from Chatsworth (?) Cal.
Stock went up about 50% since my last post. they've yet to make a profit.

Anyhow,they are a 'Microturbine hybrid electric Manufacture'. gees, i hope Bruce made it thru that thought.
they make 30 and 60 Kilowatt generators.

Please (Bruce), im not near to "Doing anything" "If at All" with my property at 4hills.

i would think its productive to Think and Converse almost any thought, with other owners at 4hills.

the cost between;
1) one or two owners bringing conditions, whatever they Be.

2) Multiple (100s) owners doing the same, but much cheaper, better results.

The cost would be more adequate, the earlier the project goes into effect.

Gees, again, i cant help thinking about Bruce (mr. Gadfly) after every sentence.

Gadfly is watching . . . .

Hi All,
Recently I was pondering the issue of bringing APS utilities to our POA's members, and I wondered whether APS's Solar Division wouldn't entertain proposing a township-wide, modular, solar-reliant utility, at this year's up-coming General meeting?

We've heard from prospective fire-fighters and from local real-estate agents at our public meetings; I suggest we hear from Arizona's Public Service Co. at this next one.

With energy costs so paramount, this year might be a good time for APS's team to pool their best planning and make a first, public proposal to our members.

Ruminatin' on the Ranch...
-Steve
Reference: http://www.energy.siemens.com/cms/us/press/Pages/news_2005_01_25_aps_new_em_system_1276644.aspx

"Recesssion has been over, about Six or seven years ago."

Jim, where do you get your economic news? From the government? They mix pixie dust with unicorn droppings to give us their economic fairy tales. Don't bet the ranch on anything eminating from Washington.

Truth is, the recession is just getting warmed up. We may be heading for stagflation or another "Big D" (a.k.a. Depression).

You want a prediction? It's gonna get bad. This year might be your last chance to prepare. You might want to get out of debt, store cash and grains, grow a garden, raise chickens and keep your ammo dry.

People looked at me like I was a lunatic years ago when I predicted the crash of the housing bubble. All I have to say is, I told you so.

I stand by my previous posts:
*people aren't visiting 4 Hills like they used to
*people are hurting for cash
*the theme park is DOA
*anyone trying to sell their parcel these days will be lucky to get what they paid for it. [The parcel two lots over from us--and one across the road--have been on the market for two years now].

The gold rush is over. The music stopped playing over a year ago and anyone without a chair is s-c-r-e-w-e-d.

P.S. Stay tuned for 4 Hills Ranch POA Board election info. Yes, Homer, it's that time again . . . .

Husband and I have been looking to purchase raw land at four hills ranch for several years...have not seen these on the markets.